On Monday, May 3, 2021, the bench trial between Apple and Epic Games will kick off. Finally. And now we know the witness list for both companies ahead of the start date.
This is going to be one of the most watched trials to date, as far as watched trials are concerned. On Apple’s side of things, the company is trying to keep the iOS experience how it is, with its fees, security, and the App Store all in place without any major changes handed down. (Unless they hand them down on their own, of course.)
Meanwhile, Epic Games wants to convince everyone that will listen that Apple is holding an illegal monopoly over iOS and the App Store. If Epic Games wins, then Apple will have to make some decisive and far reaching changes to how it handles its business. And that may lead to more changes across the board for other companies, too.
The best part so far have been the revelations out of the court filings that have surfaced over the last couple of months at least. For instance, we’ve now learned that Apple sees iMessage as a way to lock folks into the iOS ecosystem — but that didn’t stop Eddy Cue from trying to make an Android version way back in 2013.
Today’s details aren’t so juicy. Earlier, we saw part of the argument that Epic Games will make thanks to its expert witness list. And we saw Apple’s earlier this week. Now, courtesy of The Verge, we get to see the witness lists for both companies. As you’d expect, there are some heavy hitters on the list, including Apple’s CEO Tim Cook, and Epic Games’ CEO Tim Sweeney.
However, there is a bit of a caveat here. While this is a revised witness list, which both companies submitted earlier this month, it doesn’t necessarily tell us every single person that will definitively be called. This is a wide net, and these people are all options for both companies. What’s more, we don’t know when any one of them will be called. This trial may last until the end of May, at the very least, so they could be called up anywhere between May 3 and then.
Anyway, here’s the official list:
Apple’s witness list
Apple employees
- Tim Cook, CEO — covering “Apple’s corporate values; Apple’s business and operations; development and launch of the App Store; competition faced by Apple.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, 30 minutes cross examination.)
- Craig Federighi, senior vice president, software engineering — covering “iOS operating system; competition faced by Apple; Apple’s investment and efforts to combat malware, spyware, and other issues relating to app security and iOS device user protection.” (Scheduled for two hours examination, one hour cross examination.)
- Matt Fischer, App Store VP — covering “marketing of apps available in the App Store; competitors and competition in the sale of apps and the different app marketplaces; Apple’s business relationships with app developers.”
- Eric Gray, director of commerce and payments — covering the “design and operation of Apple’s payment processing policies and practices.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, 15 minutes cross examination.)
- Trystan Kosmynka, senior director of marketing — covering “App Store policies and guidelines; Apple’s app review and curation process and procedures; Apple’s investment in efforts to protect iOS device users’ safety and privacy.”
- Phil Schiller, Apple fellow — covering “Apple’s business and operations; Development and launch of the App Store; App Store policies and guidelines; the App Store business model; the App Store commission; app distribution; iOS operating system; competition faced by Apple; design, development, launch, and marketing of the iPhone.” (Scheduled for six hours examination, three hours cross examination.)
- Michael Schmid, head of game business development, App Store — covering “the tools, services, and benefits that Apple provides to developers, including to Epic; Apple’s relationship with Epic, Epic’s breaches of its agreements with Apple, and Epic’s other misconduct.” (Scheduled for 1 hour examination, 30 minutes cross examination.)
- Scott Forstall, former senior vice president, iOS Software — covering “differences between mobile devices and PCs; security and privacy considerations for mobile devices; historical App Store policies and practices.”
- Phillip Shoemaker, former technology director, app review — covering “App Store policies and guidelines; Apple’s app review and curation process and procedures; Apple’s investment in efforts to protect iOS device users’ safety and privacy.”
Epic employees
- Steve Allison, Epic Games Store general manager — covering “the Epic Games Store business model and financial projections; the Epic Games Store’s revenue split; the Epic Games Store’s market share.”
- Andrew Grant, engineering fellow — covering “enforcement of platform rules; Fortniteanti-cheat measures; the importance to Apple’s brand of protecting user privacy and security; Epic’s use of Apple-provided tools and services; Epic’s interest in workarounds to undercut Apple’s 30% commission; Epic’s efforts to subvert app review; Epic’s campaign against app stores.”
- Joseph Kreiner, VP of business development — covering “benefits of cross-platform play; Epic’s relationships with console manufacturers, including contractual terms, commissions paid by Epic, and payment processing terms; fraud on the Epic Games Store.” (Scheduled for 30 minutes examination, 10 minutes cross examination.)
- Thomas Ko, senior director, head of online business strategy and operations — covering “Epic’s relationship with Samsung, including Epic’s contracts with Samsung, commissions paid to Samsung, and communications with Samsung; Epic’s campaign against app stores.”
- Mark Rein, VP of business development — covering “the Epic Games Store business model and commission; benefits of Apple marketing and other support provided to Epic; Epic’s plans and practices concerning distribution through iOS, competing platforms, and alternative channels; Epic’s campaign against app stores.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
- Tim Sweeney, CEO — covering “Epic’s business model, operations, and strategy; Epic’s financial performance; Epic’s dealings with Apple and competing platforms, including commissions paid; Epic Games Store profitability; Epic’s relationship with Samsung, including Epic’s contracts with Samsung, commissions paid to Samsung, and communications with Samsung; Epic’s campaign against app stores.”
- Daniel Vogel, COO — covering “Epic’s exploration of sideloading on iOS and Android; Epic’s launch of Fortnite outside of the Google Play Store; security of Fortnite and the Epic Games Store, including the Xsolla payment processor; concerns over cross-platform arbitrage of ‘V-bucks’ purchases; Epic’s attempts to avoid Apple’s App Store review process; Epic’s campaign against app stores.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
- Matthew Weissinger, VP of marketing — covering “Epic’s pricing and marketing activities, including as to Fortnite; Fortnite’s profit margin; Fortnite’s weaknesses on mobile systems relative to game consoles; Epic’s campaign against app stores.”
- Joseph Babcock, former CFO — covering “Epic’s financial performance; Epic’s business model and strategy; Epic’s dealings with Apple and competing platforms, including commissions paid; Epic Games Store profitability.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
- Haseeb Malik, former marketing manager — covering “tools, services, and benefits that Apple provided to Epic; platforms on which Epic makes its games available; Epic’s campaign against app stores.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
- David Nikdel, online gameplay systems lead — covering “engineering and technology benefits received from Apple; quality of non-iOS platforms; Epic’s direct payment hotfix.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
- Nick Penwarden, VP of engineering — covering “the Unreal Engine business model; iOS and Android proprietary software and tools; engineering support from Apple; cross-platform play.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
- Alec Shobin, senior marketing manager — covering “marketing for mobile games; the App Store review process; Epic’s campaign against app stores.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination.)
Third-party witnesses
- Lori Wright, VP of Xbox business development, Microsoft — covering “the Microsoft Store; Xbox video game console business and operations; Xbox cloud gaming; distribution of apps on the App Store.”
- Benjamin Simon, founder and CEO of Yoga Buddhi Co. — covering “Yoga Buddhi’s apps and business model; tools, services, and benefits that Apple provided to Yoga Buddhi; participation in the Coalition for App Fairness; App Store review process.”
- Shelley Gould, president and co-founder of Neuro-Fin / SmartStops — covering “SmartStops’ apps and business model; tools, services, and benefits that Apple provided to SmartStops; App Store review process; communications with Apple.”
- Aashish Patel, director of product management, Nvidia — covering “tools, services, and support that Apple provided to Nvidia; distribution on competitor platforms and through alternative channels; communications with Apple; compliance with Apple’s App Review Guidelines; Nvidia’s affiliation with Epic.”
- Alphabet — documents submitted
- App Annie — documents submitted
- Roblox Corporation — documents submitted
Expert witnesses
- Richard Schmalensee, emeritus professor of economics, MIT
- Lorin Hitt, professor of operations, information, and decisions, University of Pennsylvania Wharton
- Francine LaFontaine, professor of economics, University of Michigan
- Daniel Rubinfeld, professor of law, NYU
- James Malackowski, CEO, Ocean Tomo
- Aviel Rubin, technical director, Johns Hopkins University Information Security Institute
- Dominique Hanssens, distinguished research professor of marketing, UCLA Anderson Graduate School of Management
Epic Games’ witness list
Epic Games employees
- Steve Allison, Epic Games Store general manager — covering “Epic Games Store (business).” (Scheduled for 30 minutes examination, 30 minutes cross examination.)
- Andrew Grant, engineering fellow — covering “Epic’s membership in the Apple Developer Program; engineering and development of Epic’s products for various platforms; Epic Direct Payment on iOS.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, 30 minutes cross examination.)
- Thomas Ko, senior director, head of online business strategy and operations — covering “Epic’s payment processing services; Apple’s payment processing services; Epic Direct Payment on iOS.” (Scheduled for 30 minutes examination, 15 minutes cross examination.)
- Tim Sweeney, CEO — covering “Epic’s history and business; Epic’s business discussions with Apple and Google; Epic Direct Payment on iOS; App Store policies and practices; Epic’s marketing and promotional activities; Epic’s efforts to compete in app distribution and in- app payment processing.” (Scheduled for three hours examination, three hours cross examination.)
- Matthew Weissinger, VP of marketing — covering “Epic’s marketing and promotional activities; marketing and promotional support services offered by video game consoles and mobile operating system providers, including Apple.” (Scheduled for 30 minutes examination, 30 minutes cross examination.)
Apple employees
- Matt Fischer, App Store VP — covering “App Store business strategy; App Store financial performance; App Store policies and practices; Apple’s market power over iOS developers; and/or the subjects of designated testimony.” (Scheduled for 45 minutes examination, one hour cross examination.)
- Trystan Kosmynka, senior director of marketing — covering “App Store review policies and practices; iOS and macOS engineering, security and privacy issues; and/or the subjects of designated testimony.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, two hours cross examination.)
- Eddy Cue, senior vice president, internet software and services — covering “lack of competition among mobile devices and mobile operating system software; App Store business strategy; App Store financial performance; current and historical App Store policies and practices; Apple’s prior antitrust violations.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, 10 minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Craig Federighi, senior vice president, software engineering — covering “iOS and macOS engineering, security, privacy and competition issues; App Store policies and practices.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Scott Forstall, former senior vice president, iOS software — covering “iOS and macOS engineering, security, privacy and competition issues; historical App Store policies and practices; Apple’s in-app purchasing function.” (Scheduled for one hour and five minutes examination, 10 minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Eric Friedman, head of fraud engineering, algorithms, and risk — covering “App Store review process; fraud and other abuse in Apple’s ecosystem.” (Scheduled for 30 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Eric Gray, director of commerce, subscriptions, and pricing — covering “inefficiencies and lack of integration of Apple’s payment processing services; app pricing and inelasticity of demand; fraud and other abuse in Apple’s ecosystem.” (Scheduled for 15 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- C.K. Haun, senior director, developer technical services — covering “App Store review policies and practices; iOS and macOS engineering, security and privacy issues.” (Scheduled for 50 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Ron Okamoto, former VP of worldwide developer relations — covering “benefits Apple receives from other software developers, including Epic; Apple’s market power over iOS developers.” (Scheduled for 20 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Carson Oliver, director of business management, App Store — covering “App Store policies and practices; Apple’s market power over iOS developers.” (Scheduled for 10 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Shaan Pruden, senior director of partnership management and worldwide developer relations — covering “benefits that Apple receives from other software developers, including Epic.” (Scheduled for 10 minutes examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Mark Rollins, finance manager — covering “Apple financials; App Store profit and loss statements.” (Scheduled for 10 minutes examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
- Phillip Shoemaker, former technology director, app review — covering “historical App Store review policies and practices.” (Scheduled for 55 minutes examination, 15 minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
Third-party witnesses
- Lori Wright, VP of Xbox business development, Microsoft — covering “distribution of software; Xbox video game console business and operations; Xbox cloud gaming, including xCloud and Game Pass; interactions with Apple.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, one hour cross examination.)
- Benjamin Simon, founder and CEO of Yoga Buddhi Co. — covering “app distribution; participation in the Apple Developer Program; App Store review process; interactions with Apple.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, 30 minutes cross examination.)
- Aashish Patel, director of product management, Nvidia — covering “app distribution; Nvidia’s GeForce Now service and business model; differences between streamed apps and locally hosted apps; differences between native apps and web apps; App Store review process; interactions with Apple.” (Scheduled for 45 minutes examination, 45 minutes cross examination.)
- Adrian Ong, senior VP of operations, Match Group — covering “app distribution; participation in the Apple Developer Program; App Store review process; interactions with Apple; differences between native apps and web experiences; Match Group’s payment processing capabilities; effects of Apple’s 30% fee on Match Group and its users; user acquisition.” (Scheduled for one hour examination, five minutes cross examination, via deposition rather than live appearance.)
Expert witnesses
- Susan Athey, economics of technology professor, Stanford University Graduate School of Business
- Ned Barnes, managing director, Berkeley Research Group
- Michael Cragg, principal and chairman, The Brattle Group
- David Evans, chairman, Global Economics Group
- Wenke Lee, chair, College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology
- Nancy Mathiowetz, professor emerita, department of sociology, the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
- James Mickens, professor of computer science, Harvard University
- Peter Rossi, professor of marketing, economics and statistics, UCLA